Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Enter no conflict against fanatics unless you can defuse them. Oppose a
religion with another religion only if your proofs (miracles) are irrefutable or
if you can mesh in a way that the fanatics accept you as god-inspired. This has
long been the barrier to science assuming a mantle of divine revelation.
Science is so obviously manmade. Fanatics (and many are fanatic on one subject
or another) must know where you stand, but more important, must recognize who
whispers in your ear.
-Missionaria Protectiva, Primary Teaching

It took two months to get Sheeana approved as replacement for Tamalane. Bellonda has been standing day watch while Odrade is absent, like today, breifing a new Bene Gesserit remnant being sent into Scattering. Idaho's suggestion that this was futile sent shock waves through The Sisterhood, but the council reluctantly continued it, with new briefings on what they may encounter. Murbella's baby is due in eight days. Odrade thinks Murbella is ready for the agony after this birth. Sheeana's daily reports come in late and are often repetative, no wormsign, spice mass intact. They are still unsure about Sheeana and Duncan's plan to control Teg and awaken his memories by imprinting him. Odrade plans to bring Scytale back to her workroom and asks that Tam be there. When she, Tam and Scytale are alone in the workroom, she asks why he was leaving Bandalong when the Whores attacked. He doesn't answer but asks if they are growing a replacement ghola of him, which they confirm. He tells them he was on Lashkar with a force of khasadars seeking a herd of Futars for their defense. He admits to himself that they were betrayed by his own people returned from The Scattering. He tells them that the returned ones had only brought two Futars which would not reproduce in their tanks and they died before they could figure out why. He says the Futars on Gammu would not kill Honored Matres because they had no orders to do so. Odrade asks if that's why he wants face dancers, to kill him on his order to prevent them from learning his secrets.

Bellonda's projection interupts them, an urgent message from Sheeana. The spice blow has occured and there are sandworms. Ordade tells Scytale he has just lost a barganing chip, but he says it's a trick. Just then, Sheeana bursts in towing a tiny worm on a suspensor pod. She says there are thousands of them and picks it up and cradles it like a baby. Scytale stares in awe of the Prophet. Odrade, sighs in relief that Sheeana can still control them, asks if he still serves the prophet, there he is. She reveals that they saved the last revnant of the Prophet and are turning Chapterhouse into another Dune. He asks for time to think, all his dreams are vanishing. He realises they no longer need him, but he needs them. Odrade offers that they make common cause against the Honored Matres, if not in the Great Belief. All they want is to know how to make the best Tanks. He insists he must have his own Face Dancers and tanks. She says the council will consider it. She sends him back to the no-ship in a ground car. They discuss the myth potential of turning Chapterhouse into another Dune. Bell makes a prime computation that the creaters of the Futars hope to control the Bene Gesserit. They are all thinking in sync now, if Murbella survives the Agony and Teg's memories are restored they just may have a fighting chance.

They receive a message that Clairby has been mortally wounded in an accident. They are very short of skilled help these days. Odrade gives the order to cyborg him.

I was reading this chapter last night and the prologue about religious fanatics is one of my favorite prologues from any of the books.

Herbert is the best I've ever read at breaking down culture and simplifying the complexity of human thought and emotion. Well second best actually; I'm a big Shakespeare fan but that's another story. Herbert, though, finds those truths in patterns that a historian might recognize about our culture years from now and makes them absolute so we can see where they lead us and how we're all manipulated by forces within or outside (BG) of our control. It took such excellent imagination to leave the microcosm of our short lives and zoom out as far as he did to see the macro vision of human history, and then expand it into his Duniverse.

Of course it's all sci-fi so his conclusions are entirely narrative but it seems so wise and thought out sometimes that quotes like the prologue above leave a lasting impression and remind me why I've spent so much time watching and reading sci-fi.

"It took two months to get Sheeana approved as replacement for Tamalane."

Sheeana was an unknown quantity and impetuous. Unlike other Reverend Mothers, she took the Water of Life at a relatively late age: an age that prevented her from absorbing the typical moral teachings provided to initiates of the Bene Gesserit order. She was an outsider, a loner, the only person that commanded Sandworms, the only person that understood the sexual seduction techniques of the Honored Matres, and the only person who produced a plan that rivaled the brilliance of Odrade's plan. She (along with Duncan, Miles, Marty and Daniel) represented a new direction in human evolution.

I'm not entirely sure I agree with that whole statement but i'd like to hear more.

What do you mean by,"...absorbing the typical moral teachings provided to initiates..." and its relationship to when she took the WoL?
I thought that the BT, BG, and Duncan "understood the sexual seduction techniques of the Honored Matres," How is Sheannas knowledge different?
Could you expand on your reasons for Sheanna representing a new direction in human evolution?

antonio wrote:Unlike other Reverend Mothers, she took the Water of Life at a relatively late age: an age that prevented her from absorbing the typical moral teachings provided to initiates of the Bene Gesserit order.

Her words filled him with images of the Dune waif who had become a full Reverend
Mother (the youngest ever, so they said). Sheeana, his confidante, out there
watching over that last great sandworm. Had it finally perpetuated itself? Why
should Odrade interest herself in Sheeana's visit?
~CH:D

NEXT!

QUOTEFIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!

How is Sheannas knowledge different? Could you expand on your reasons for Sheanna representing a new direction in human evolution?

Sure, I'm willing to expand on these ideas, but let me ask you first, Do you believe the Sheanna and her expedition will be lost, killed or transformed into Honored Matres, as all other Bene Gesserit expeditions into the Scattering have been?

antonio wrote:

How is Sheannas knowledge different? Could you expand on your reasons for Sheanna representing a new direction in human evolution?

Sure, I'm willing to expand on these ideas, but let me ask you first, Do you believe the Sheanna and her expedition will be lost, killed or transformed into Honored Matres, as all other Bene Gesserit expeditions into the Scattering have been?

They won't be subverted, they have the secret to spice, two ways. Dunification or Axlotl tank.

Freakzilla wrote:They won't be subverted, they have the secret to spice, two ways. Dunification or Axlotl tank.

Having a supply of spice and the ability to produce spice represent important advantages for the Sheanna expedition. However, are not they vulnerable to remaining lost or being murdered by the Honored Matres and other enemies present in the Scattering?

I think a group of strong Reverend Mothers, The Bashar, Duncan Idaho, the Last Master and the Jews will be able to take care of themselves wherever they go.

More like, take over.

antonio wrote:

How is Sheannas knowledge different? Could you expand on your reasons for Sheanna representing a new direction in human evolution?

Sure, I'm willing to expand on these ideas, but let me ask you first, Do you believe the Sheanna and her expedition will be lost, killed or transformed into Honored Matres, as all other Bene Gesserit expeditions into the Scattering have been?

No

D Pope wrote:What do you mean by,"...absorbing the typical moral teachings provided to initiates..." and its relationship to when she took the WoL? I thought that the BT, BG, and Duncan "understood the sexual seduction techniques of the Honored Matres," How is Sheannas knowledge different?

Could you expand on your reasons for Sheanna representing a new direction in human evolution?

Unlike Murbella, Sheeana is relatively unaffected by the male sexual seduction techniques that Duncan knows and has taught to other males. This fact, together with her assignment to "polish" the males suggests that she has mastered the Honored Matres sexual seduction techniques to a degree not previously seen in the Old Empire or the Scattering. Exactly how her knowledge is different is difficult to say, although it could indicate that Sheanna is less affected by conditioning and social influences in general.

The way that Sheeana was discovered on Rakis was unique and unprecedented. There was a prophesy that someone would appear on Rakis that could command the God Emperor Sandworms, and the Bene Gesserit were waiting for such a person to be born. However, Sheeana's abilities were not the result of selective breeding because there were no such program taking place among the Fremen of Rakis.

It should be noted that it's unclear how anyone could ever command a sandworm. Although Leto himself could perform something similar after he had taken the sandtrout skin, Sheeana possessed no such organic accoutrements. One explanation for Sheeana's ability is that it is not an ability at all, but instead it merely reflects the God Emperor Sandworm's recognition that Sheeana has the special genetic characteristics that are essential for the survival of humankind.

If Sheeana does possess a unique genetic inheritance prized by the God Emperor, How do these genes manifest themselves in special abilities? Traditionally, the Agony has a transformative effect on new Reverend Mother's and modifies their personalities in predictable ways. However, in Sheeana's case, she appears less affected by the Agony, and therefore, by implication, less affected by the presence of Other Memory/Ancestor Memory itself. It is as if, like Siona (invisible to prescience), Sheeana is invisible to Ancestor Memories and therefore freed from the antiquated strictures of human history, and empowered to confront difficult challenges from a totally unique perspective.

Another clue regarding Sheeana's special abilities is provided by her art project, "The Void." Odrade is stunned by Sheeana's creation because realizes that she cannot relate to the consciousness responsible for such a work. It is as if Sheeana has diverged from the usual path Reverend Mothers travel and has instead ventured off into unknown territory. However, to meet the challenges humankind faces it will be necessary to "balance on unique surfaces" and call into being new solutions necessary to solve the unfathomable problems the universe presents.

All those details about Sheanna will help her survive contact with elements of the Scattering, not hinder her.

antonio wrote:However, in Sheeana's case, she appears less affected by the Agony, and therefore, by implication, less affected by the presence of Other Memory/Ancestor Memory itself. It is as if, like Siona (invisible to prescience), Sheeana is invisible to Ancestor Memories and therefore freed from the antiquated strictures of human history, and empowered to confront difficult challenges from a totally unique perspective.

Textual support? (=Quotes?)

(mrs pork, is that you again?)

Interesting! Can't hardly wait till the next installment!

Man, you can't just make up stuff that wasn't in the book and use it as an argument here. We'll call you on it.

among other things, antonio wrote:Another clue regarding Sheeana's special abilities is provided by her art project, "The Void." Odrade is stunned by Sheeana's creation because realizes that she cannot relate to the consciousness responsible for such a work. It is as if Sheeana has diverged from the usual path Reverend Mothers travel and has instead ventured off into unknown territory. However, to meet the challenges humankind faces it will be necessary to "balance on unique surfaces" and call into being new solutions necessary to solve the unfathomable problems the universe presents.

It's probably a semantics issue but i'm not getting how that response ( I only quoted the last bit for fear of getting the jumpy screen ) equates to, "a new direction in human evolution." Was she gifted? Yes, in several ways. Was she something new to humanity? Not in an evolutionary sense, would her ghola- if left 'unawakened'- lend some new genetic trait? Were you going for something like her thinking was evolved?

By the way mate, don't take it personally if someone here disagrees with you. If you feel you're right, tell 'em why! If you're not, well, check your research and maybe send a thank you. Didn't Kynes say something about how saving one from a mistake was... something good?
Please feel free to expand/comment/defend any of the other topics you've brought up as well.

We've gone way off topic.

Freakzilla wrote:

antonio wrote:Unlike other Reverend Mothers, she took the Water of Life at a relatively late age: an age that prevented her from absorbing the typical moral teachings provided to initiates of the Bene Gesserit order.

Her words filled him with images of the Dune waif who had become a full Reverend
Mother (the youngest ever, so they said). Sheeana, his confidante, out there
watching over that last great sandworm. Had it finally perpetuated itself? Why
should Odrade interest herself in Sheeana's visit?
~CH:D

NEXT!

What was unusual regarding Sheeana's joining the Bene Gesserit was that she joined them at a very late age, which was a cause for concern in the run up to her taking the bluey liquid from them syringes. I enjoyed the polarism of the missionaria protectiva of the Bene Gesserit awaiting the prophesied arrival of the Worm Dancer.

inhuien wrote: What was unusual regarding Sheeana's joining the Bene Gesserit was that she joined them at a very late age, which was a cause for concern in the run up to her taking the bluey liquid from them syringes. I enjoyed the polarism of the missionaria protectiva of the Bene Gesserit awaiting the prophesied arrival of the Worm Dancer.

Sheanna kicks ass!

antonio wrote:

inhuien wrote: What was unusual regarding Sheeana's joining the Bene Gesserit was that she joined them at a very late age, which was a cause for concern in the run up to her taking the bluey liquid from them syringes. I enjoyed the polarism of the missionaria protectiva of the Bene Gesserit awaiting the prophesied arrival of the Worm Dancer.

Sheanna kicks ass!

Yeah, OK.

What did you mean by "the polarism of the missionaria protectiva..."?

The fact that they were awaiting a prophesied arrival rather than embedding prophecies in indigenous peoples.

How do we know the MP didn't plant the sandrider prophecy in the first place?

There's no mention of it in GEoD.

I guess we don't, but it is the kind of thing Frank would've mentioned.

inhuien wrote:I guess we don't, but it is the kind of thing Frank would've mentioned.

I find it odd that he even put that in there without the actual prophecy being mentioned previously, at least in an epigraph.

We know the BGMP had been on Arrakis before Jessica (an MP adept, mind you) got there.

We know the Atreides Dynasty continued the tradition and took religious manipulation of the masses to an extreem that the BGMP still get moist thinking about 1,500 years later.

Leto couldn't have seen Sheeana anyway.