Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

All states are abstractions.
-Octun Politicus, BG Archives

Day seventeen of Lucilla's interrogation by Great Honored Matre. The caged futar enters first. Lucilla tries to talk the futar into killing Dama but learns that it requires a kill order from a handler. Besides that, the futar says Dama is poisonous and shows her a burn on the inside of it's lip. Dama enters and they continue their discussion of politics from the previous day. They talk about laws, regulations and bureaucrats. Through the discussion Dama revealls that she has kept Lucilla alive to learn more about prescience. Lucilla confirms that the Honored Matres were bureaucrats turned terrorist. She also comes to the conclusion the the Honored Matres are no longer human. They discuss the form of democracy the Bene Gesserit practice and the futar decides he likes Lucilla, Dama is angered that Lucilla has ruined the futar for her. Lucilla finally enrages Dama, who kills her.

These are some of the best pages I ever read. I'm (re)reading CHoD and after I finished this chapter, I went back and read it again. It has got it all, form the themes that are discussed, to the way it is written, to the ending. Excelent.

It is a great chapter, it's especially heavy on the politics.

That's why I'm somewhat surpised I loved it, beacuse I really hate politics. Don't have any affiliation, don't care, g'damn it, mostly beacuse of the politicians around here, man what a bunch of idiots

Do y'all think the Bene Gesserit views on politics are FH's?

Maybe not 100%, but surely his cup of tea was in that cupboard

valys wrote:beacuse I really hate politics.

What?! But, but...

Politics makes me sooo horney! Check out my webcam pick-up at presidentialsluts.com! *God bless RvB*

Freakzilla wrote:Do y'all think the Bene Gesserit views on politics are FH's?

Well, what valys just said, but in general, FH does point a finger at the BG in various occassions(GEoD for instance, and prcatically all other books as well). They themselves "discover"(through Tar&Dar) that they need to change some aspects of their sisterhood.
Generally speaking, the sisterhood is a remarkable organization, but mainly through the taught discipline and "super-powers" the sisters gain from the spice(like OM) that literally make them "come back to the fold" even if they've erred or gone astray(Jessica, that RM from Buzzel(sp?) in ChD, Schwangio(sp?)).
They still have power struggles and some power hungry sisters(the archivists are mentioned as storing too much power), but they're all too committed and wisened to behave like our petty politicians.

But they're not the God Emperor, who, in his infinite wisdom, acted selflessly, sacrificing himself for humanity's future. *tear*

orald wrote:[...that RM from Buzzel(sp?)

Dortjula

Schwangio(sp?))

Schwangyu

Freakzilla wrote:

orald wrote:[...that RM from Buzzel(sp?)

Dortjula

I knew there was a 'D' somewhere...

This time reading this chapter I got the impression that some of what Lucilla was feeding Dama was actually nonsense and just a way of winding her up rather than a totally serious lecture on politics. What exemplifies this is when Lucilla lectures Dama on the difference between laws and regulations but then uses them both to describe the same thing in the one sentence. It's even funnier when Dama takes her so seriously but then doesn't even notice!

SadisticCynic wrote:This time reading this chapter I got the impression that some of what Lucilla was feeding Dama was actually nonsense and just a way of winding her up rather than a totally serious lecture on politics. What exemplifies this is when Lucilla lectures Dama on the difference between laws and regulations but then uses them both to describe the same thing in the one sentence. It's even funnier when Dama takes her so seriously but then doesn't even notice!

I agree, I think Lucilla knew they were going to killer her and had no hope of escape. I think she was provoking Dama into killing her.

No revisions.

is Lucilla's determination of honored matre being"not human" ever mentioned again or independantly reached by another?

I don't think so.

First of all, the BG's definition of human is very narrow. Secondly, the HMs were integrated with the BG so they were in my opinion accepted as human.

are there any other references to bene gesserit severe definition of human besides the gob jabber and pain box test?

dama makes one statement " theres no such thing as human understanding!"
and lucilla's thought is "our question is answered, not human"
then she immediately launches into an attach via dama's unconscious as if
the determination she isnt human is essential to the following particular angle being most correct and effective

seems a rather significant point to have been left lying around

id say honored matres induction into the bene gesserit schools represents a change in revered mothers definition of whats human rather than honored matre's being found in accordance with what they had insisted upon previously

Leto talks about the BG definition of human in GEoD.

I believe Odrade ponders that it is the BG who have stepped outside of humanity and want's them to get back into it.

taraza as well

any ideas on why Dama got so enraged in the end?

Freakzilla wrote: ↑14 Jan 2010 11:04

SadisticCynic wrote:This time reading this chapter I got the impression that some of what Lucilla was feeding Dama was actually nonsense and just a way of winding her up rather than a totally serious lecture on politics. What exemplifies this is when Lucilla lectures Dama on the difference between laws and regulations but then uses them both to describe the same thing in the one sentence. It's even funnier when Dama takes her so seriously but then doesn't even notice!

I agree, I think Lucilla knew they were going to killer her and had no hope of escape. I think she was provoking Dama into killing her.

Lucilla's chance to live were slim yes, because of the shere, and she would have never betray the bene gesserit for the matres, I was so sad when she died , but at least, she saved memories of lampadas and even Murbella, her heir, remembers her bravery !!! Team Lucilla forver !!!!