Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

In all of my universe I have seen no law of nature, unchanging and inexorable.
This universe presents only changing relationships which are sometimes seen as
laws by short-lived awareness. These fleshly sensoria which we call self are
ephemera withering in the blaze of infinity, fleetingly aware of temporary
conditions which confine our activities and change as our activities change. If
you must label the absolute, use it's proper name: Temporary.
-The Stolen Journals

Nayla stands with her lasgun behind one of the rock pillars about twenty meters from the bridge thinking this is surely a test from God. The Fremen waited at the edge of the bridge, three Fish Speakers of her troop waited in the middle. When they near the middle she is to cut the bridge with the lasgun. She decides that God must be planning a miracle.

Moneo sees the people on the bridge and turns to question Leto but his canopy is closed. He sees Idaho and Siona beyond and feels caught up in the inevitable. As they approach the Fish Speakers in the middle they start dancing away. This strikes Moneo as odd, Fish Speakers never dance in public. He hears the first lasgun beam strike the bridge and thinks this can't be happening. He hears the Royal Cart's cover slam open but can't look. The roadbed tilts and everyone goes sliding towards the canyon and he grabs one of the severed support cables. He then turns to look back and sees Hwi standing on the cart, holding onto her chair. Members of the cortege are falling off the bridge. His hands begin to slip on the cable from sweat. He turns again in time to see Leto's feeble attemp to catch Hwi and stop her from falling, but she goes silently. He wonders why Leto doesn't activate the cart's suspensors as his hands slip from the cable and sees the lasgun beam hit the cart's suspensors. One of the last things he sees before hitting the rocks is Leto falling from the cart, but before that he shouts to Leto that he believes in Siaynoq.

Leto falls into the water, enclosing him in agony as the sandtrout leave his body. The river washes him up on the beach at the former location of Sietch Tabr. Nayla, Siona and Duncan climb down on ropes. Duncan, furious that Hwi died snatches Nayla's lasgun and cuts her up. Leto tells Duncan to let the people run and scatter anywhere they chose and that the Fish Speakers will follow him and Siona carries the seeds of their survival. He tells them that his spice is hidden in Seitch Tabr and that no oracle will be able to see Siona's descendants. Leto starts to desintegrate and as he does he tells them not to fear the Ixians, they cannot create arafel.

I never quite understood what arafel meant, i'm not sure. What is it?

Seraphan wrote:I never quite understood what arafel meant, i'm not sure. What is it?

The "cloud darkness of holy judgement" after kralizec.

Ah now i get it; thanks.

Seraphan wrote:Ah now i get it; thanks.

I exist only to serve.

I've read GEoD twice now, and am confused with Moneo's death. He screamed "Leto! Siaynoq, I believe!" And he mentions seeing golden smoke.

I was wondering if this meant Moneo finally, truly believed in the Golden Path -- that the universe would move past, exist, and eventually flourish without the God Emperor.

He also called the God Emperor "Leto," which seemed interesting since the whole novel Moneo was very careful to refer to him as "Lord" and "The Worm Who is God."

Maybe he called him Leto in the end because he finally saw Leto's humanity and his sacrifice.

Mandy wrote:Maybe he called him Leto in the end because he finally saw Leto's humanity and his sacrifice.

I kind of thought this, too. It seems Moneo had an epiphany as he was plummeting to his death.

I just finished GEoD again. I must say I've enjoyed it much more this time, even though I liked it the first time, I never finished it the second time. This is the third time I read it (second time a finish it) and I've eaten everything raw!

on to HoD!

Just finished God Emperor for the first time.

Gotta say I was sad to see Leto go although he frustrated me throughout most if the book. I identified with Duncan and his lack of understanding of the larger themes at work. I think I understand the Golden Path and its purpose to create a new line if descendants who are shielded from those gifted with prescience, but is that it? Maybe because it's my first time through but I found it really hard to identify the encompassing purpose of Leto's actions and what he is protecting humanity from. So many conversations of unspoken meanings and subtexts had me waiting for this final chapter and anticipating a great revelation.
Has anyone else had that nagging worry that you're missing something in the subtext that you should be getting? I kept thinking, should this conversation or internal dialogue make more sense to me? It's a lot to ask for the first time through and thankfully i don't think I missed anything that's going to stop me from enjoying the next books but someday I'll have to go back and read the entire series again not paying as much careful attention to understanding and just letting the books 'pass over me and through me.'
Also the idea of Siona being in charge bothered me a bit, if not for any reason than she just seemed like a little bitch, haha. At least Duncan gets the Fish Speakers and all the perks that go with that

Some of the effects of the Golden Path will be made clear in subsequent books, but GEoD did make it pretty clear what it was, so I don't think I'm spoiling anything. Stop reading if you prefer to read Heretics and Chapter House first.

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Others can probably explain this better, but I think the Golden Path involves the Scattering of humanity beyond the reaches of charted space, so that no one prescient ruler (or otherwise) can dominate them, no one threat can endanger them, and no internal societal flaw or destructive element can destroy them from within. Leto achieved this by freeing humanity from dependence on melange for space travel through the Ixian Navigation Machines, by making them invisible to prescience through the Siona Gene, and by creating the desire to Scatter by enforcing an effective ban on space travel for 3500 years.

HBJ

"Has anyone else had that nagging worry that you're missing something in the subtext that you should be getting? "


it should not be a worry, but an assumption ...Frank did this on purpose;
after you have read all the Dune books several times thru, assume there
are still many things you have overlooked or not noticed or misunderstood ..

That's why we keep reading them.

I don't know if the whole Scattering thing really is made that clear in GEoD, definitely not for most first time readers anyways - so that might indeed be a spoiler of sorts!

But yes, the GP confused the hell out of me too at first. There's a great thread here, and several discussions, all about what the GP was and how it worked. Check them out in the main part of the forum, they explain a lot.

Looking back over I also think that the GP was designed to constantly throw up barriers to human stagnation. In Dune the known galaxy is in a state of stagnation that Paul is unwilling to make the sacrifice necessary to break humanity free of the slow death spiral. Leto II did and the GP created pockets of life that no longer were dependent upon each other. Some would survive some would not but no matter what humanity would go on.

Rob

Thanks for your responses, guys.
It helps a lot just to have some people spell out what the Golden Path is. I got the larger points that it ensured the survival of humanity and that Siona was the first of a new breed of humans that exist outside prescient vision. Yet some of the details of the Scattering are a bit of a mystery to me but I'm not looking to get too much detail on that yet since it seems to be a significant part of Heretics if the first 20 pages are any indication.

And I hear your point, Sandrider. I have to resign myself to just assuming that my lack of understanding is really a part of the overall journey. It's reassuring to know that most of you guys have read and re-read the books because I felt stupid not getting it all the first time.

Well I've got some reading to do ...

I've actually got an idea on the GP that might help bring the two camps (the pragmatic types who see it as just the scattering, and those who want something more deeply physcological) together. I'll post it in the appropriate thread though.

I'll check it out, Eternity

nistle2 wrote:I'll check it out, Eternity

Also, because you're new I'll explain my name. A Thing of Eternity is the loose English translation out of Arabic (what version I have no idea) of Shai Hulud.

Kind of a cocky name back when I picked it I guess!

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

nistle2 wrote:I'll check it out, Eternity

Also, because you're new I'll explain my name. A Thing of Eternity is the loose English translation out of Arabic (what version I have no idea) of Shai Hulud.

Kind of a cocky name back when I picked it I guess!

Nah that's a good name. I wouldn't have thought to translate it from the Arabic but Dune is just the gift that keeps on giving!

I'm much less original. Nistle2 was just a dumb name I came up with when I was a kid on AOL instant messenger years ago. It means absolutely nothing, haha.

I have just finished my fifth reading of GEoD. I keep count because of a friendly competition that I have with a friend who I introduced to Dune after my first read of the chronicles. He just finished his third read of the series and I have no intention of letting him "catch" me.

As to Moneo's last moment:

Frybread wrote:I've read GEoD twice now, and am confused with Moneo's death. He screamed "Leto! Siaynoq, I believe!" And he mentions seeing golden smoke.

I was wondering if this meant Moneo finally, truly believed in the Golden Path -- that the universe would move past, exist, and eventually flourish without the God Emperor.

He also called the God Emperor "Leto," which seemed interesting since the whole novel Moneo was very careful to refer to him as "Lord" and "The Worm Who is God."

Frybread wrote:

Mandy wrote:Maybe he called him Leto in the end because he finally saw Leto's humanity and his sacrifice.

I kind of thought this, too. It seems Moneo had an epiphany as he was plummeting to his death.

Moneo understood the Golden Path and Leto's sacrifice since the moment he was sensitized to it during his test. What he finally realized during his epiphany was his own importance as a constituent of the eternal; the inseparability of yesterday, today and tomorrow personified in himself. Here are a couple of quotes from this chapter that may shed some light on the issue:

Leto talking to Siona while dying:

"You are God embodied. You walk around within the greatest miracle of this universe, yet you refuse to touch or see or feel or believe in it."

This admonition applies to Moneo as well.

Earlier in the chapter while Moneo fell to his death:

[...] Moneo fell freely then in the ecstasy of awareness. The universe opened for him like clear glass, everything flowing in a no-Time.
The golden smoke!
"Leto!", he screamed. "Siaynoq! I believe!

So do I, my dear friend ...

I have cow stomache for you!!! No, seriously, I'm loving life, how about you guys?

MetaCugel8262 wrote:I have cow stomache for you!!! No, seriously, I'm loving life, how about you guys?

This is your one warning.

You may post your off-topic comments anywhere but the reading group.

Don't do it again.

Yes sir!

Revised