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'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 11 Sep 2018 23:31
by pcqypcqy
I'm rereading everything again, and this passage between Hwi and Leto caught my eye.

"They have not told me, Lord. Perhaps Kobat took it onto himself to behave this way."

"I think not. It has occurred to me that your people desired only the death of their chosen assassin."

"The death of Kobat?"

"No, the death of the one they chose to use the weapon." "Who was that, Lord? I've not been told."
"It's unimportant. Do you recall what I said at the time of your ancestor's foolishness?"

I had never really thought about before. I'm trying to work out if this might be more significant.

It seems that Ix wanted a younger more virile Duncan around when Hwi arrived on the scene. It was a necessary part of their plan to hasten his/Leto’s end by Duncan and Hwi getting it on, and this wouldn't have worked with the older Duncan?

Earlier after the Tleilaxu attack on the way to Onn, there was this exchange about Leto being distracted.

We know the Tleilaxu were helping Ix with the technology for the no-room where Hwi was conceived. Perhaps that’s the extent of it.

"I have been remiss," Leto said. "I should've taught all of you how to detect Face Dancers. It will be corrected now that they grow foolishly bold."
"Why are they so bold?" Idaho asked.
"Perhaps to distract us from something else," Moneo said.

Leto smiled at Moneo. Under the stress of personal threat, the majordomo's mind worked well. He had failed his Lord by mistaking Face Dancer mimics for known Fremen. Now, Moneo felt that his continued service might depend upon those abilities for which the God Emperor had originally chosen him.

"And now we have time to prepare ourselves," Leto said.

"Distract us from what?" Idaho demanded.

"From another plot in which they participate," Leto said. "They think I will punish them severely for this, but the Tleilaxu core remains safe because of you, Duncan."

"They didn't intend to fail here," Idaho said.

"But it was a contingency for which they were prepared," Moneo said.
"They believe I will not destroy them because they hold the original cells of my Duncan Idaho," Leto said. "Do you understand, Duncan?"

"Are they right?" Idaho demanded.

"They approach being wrong," Leto said. He returned his attention to Moneo. "No sign of this event must go with us to Onn. Fresh uniforms, new guards to replace the dead and wounded . . . everything just as it was."

"There are dead among your courtiers, Lord," Moneo said. "Replace them!"
Moneo bowed. "Yes, Lord."

"And send for a new canopy to my cart!"

"As my Lord commands."

Leto backed his cart a few paces away, turned it and headed for the bridge,
calling back to Idaho. "Duncan, you will accompany me."

Slowly at first, reluctance heavy in every movement, Idaho left Moneo and the others, then, increasing his pace, came up beside the cart's open bubble and walked there while staring in at Leto.

"What troubles you, Duncan?" Leto asked.

"Do you really think of me as your Duncan?"

"Of course, just as you think of me as your Leto."

"Why didn't you know this attack was coming?"

"Through my vaunted prescience''"


"The Face Dancers have not attracted my attention for a long time," Leto said.

"I presume that is changed now?"

"Not to any great degree."

"Why not'?"

"Because Moneo was correct. I will not let myself be distracted."

Re: 'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 12 Sep 2018 10:15
by georgiedenbro
This is the one book where I always feel reluctant to wade in because it's never not true that I need to read it again to be sure. But based on my memory of it I can't help but think that the Tleilaxu were playing a game where Leto was being tempted to be distracted on various occasions, and the trick was whether or not to pay close attention to the distraction. From earlier books we know that the BT are keen to topple a god based on his greatest strength, using it against him. For Paul it was the reliance on prescience that allowed them to get to him. For Leto II it seems that his strength is in the breadth of his attention. Anything he focuses on will be totally under his control, so the game is to make him unsure exactly what to focus on. In general his focus is the Golden Path, and as a part of that, the development of the INM. Any small-scale maneuvers will be understood to be distractions from the larger plan, from which he can't be deviated, and that plan involves Siona (or her equivalent) and Duncan. Amidst all of the BT plans that tempt Leto to focus on them momentarily and risk making a small error in regard to the Golden Path, they can plant uncertainty for him about whether a particular small-time plan will actually be connected to his vision of the Golden Path or not.

The attack mentioned above seems to be identified by Leto and Moneo as a potential distraction, but they wonder what the 'real plan' might be. The real mind game is that maybe a smaller plan could be the real plan, and the larger plan it pretends to hide is actually the cover. By having a massive plan cloaked by a smaller action such as this attack it makes it look like the larger plan is the thing to focus on, which is exactly the way in which the BT would try to trick Leto; perhaps the smaller plan was the real threat after all, even if apparently thwarted. It's a question of scaling: should Leto be focusing on very large events, or very small ones, and which of those will be the greatest danger to him and the Golden Path. I think that's what Leto means at the end of the 2nd quote when he says that he hasn't and still won't be focusing on the Face Dancers; that it requires too much attention to constantly monitor the Golden Path and they know that if he begins to focus on small things they can try to destabilize the large things. But if he refuses to focus on the small things then they will throw small things at him that pose large threats.

Re: 'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 19 Sep 2018 20:28
by distrans
mabe face dancers fall off the map but general security shouldn't you would think...

Re: 'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 25 Sep 2018 21:32
by pcqypcqy
Yeah, I dunno georgie. GEoD is a tough nut to crack.

I got the feeling that Leto's powers were virtually infinite. Nothing, NOTHING, occurred without his knowledge, even the development of the ixian no-globe and the navigation machine were known by their absences. Leto however did nothing to counter them because they were a part of his golden path.

My main revelation with this stuff is that obviously there's the fact that Ix is trying to destroy/distract Leto via Hwi, however the new bit for me was that Tleilaxu were more actively involved in this than I initially thought (i.e. apart from just giving Ix the technology to do so).

The Hwi/Duncan affair was a part of the plan, and wouldn't have occurred had Kobat not given the lasgun to the previous Duncan.

Re: 'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 26 Sep 2018 09:48
by georgiedenbro
pcqypcqy wrote:I got the feeling that Leto's powers were virtually infinite. Nothing, NOTHING, occurred without his knowledge

That doesn't really jive with this (unless Leto isn't being entirely honest):

"Why didn't you know this attack was coming?"

"Through my vaunted prescience''"


"The Face Dancers have not attracted my attention for a long time," Leto said.

"I presume that is changed now?"

"Not to any great degree."

My post above was an attempt at an explanation for why Leto wouldn't focus on such things, even though to us they look like pretty important things to worry about.

Re: 'the plot' within GEoD

Posted: 27 Sep 2018 10:23
by Freakzilla
While I acknowledge that Leto's prescience was extreme, In CoD he said that only the local currents of time could be foretold, but local could be gigantic relatively speaking. I got the impression from GEoD that he only used it to ensure the GP. He treasured surprises and said so multiple times.