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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 12:36

    I happen to agree that it seems a little too fast for widespread acceptance. But then again, people surprise me all the time.

    (The "American Empire" seemed not so implausible at all.)

    Redstar wrote:There's a big difference between browsing information and uploading your entire existence into a possibly soulless machine.

    Really? There's really a difference between a machine made of meat and one made of metal? ;)

    I'd trade my meat for metal any day! :P

    (My meat has been particularly hard put upon the last thirty hours or so, and is feeling it, as a matter of fact.)
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 12:40

    For the record, I think it will be a very long time before we can build a non-organic machine that can accurately run the human "program", if we ever do acheive that level at all. There's no theoretical reason it can't be done, but it may remain out of reach.

    However, if we do manage to build hardware that can properly simulate a human nervous system, then it will be every bit as human as one built of flesh.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 13:57

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:However, if we do manage to build hardware that can properly simulate a human nervous system, then it will be every bit as human as one built of flesh.

    But I agree with Redstar that there will be idiots who argue to the contrary. :)
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 14:07

    SandChigger wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:However, if we do manage to build hardware that can properly simulate a human nervous system, then it will be every bit as human as one built of flesh.

    But I agree with Redstar that there will be idiots who argue to the contrary. :)


    Of course, the idea rattles most religious people. It will require quite the adjustment to the current dogma, as will the advent of AI - THAT one is really going to put some religious beliefs through the wringer.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 14:48

    More devastating than the discovery of sentient/intelligent extraterrestrial organic life, I'd wager. :)
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 14:51

    Probably, though that one would mess them up pretty good too.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby Eyes High » 24 Sep 2009 19:58

    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I would argue that if a human being has a soul, then so would a machine with a human being inside it. A human being is a human MIND, that is all. You could loose any part of your physical body and be considered no less human, but if you are a braindead vegitable (rest of your body functioning fine) you are no longer a human being, you are dead.



    I actually agree with you on that first part Thing. A machine with a human being inside would have a soul because the human being has the soul. (I know you don't actually believe that part about humans having souls and that you were stating it hypothetically)

    But from what I have read on this subject, I agree with those who say that it will not be widely accepted that fast.

    Ok, enough rambling for now.

    Later friends.
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    Nothing, but that which is in our own imaginations.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby A Thing of Eternity » 24 Sep 2009 20:12

    Eyes High wrote:
    A Thing of Eternity wrote:I would argue that if a human being has a soul, then so would a machine with a human being inside it. A human being is a human MIND, that is all. You could loose any part of your physical body and be considered no less human, but if you are a braindead vegitable (rest of your body functioning fine) you are no longer a human being, you are dead.



    I actually agree with you on that first part Thing. A machine with a human being inside would have a soul because the human being has the soul. (I know you don't actually believe that part about humans having souls and that you were stating it hypothetically)

    But from what I have read on this subject, I agree with those who say that it will not be widely accepted that fast.

    Ok, enough rambling for now.

    Later friends.


    Why thank you Eyes! :D
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby E. LeGuille » 24 Sep 2009 21:49

    The major reason for technology becoming a religious debate is an American political tactic. If a group disagrees with a topic because of some moral complex, then they will make it a religious topic, not a scientific topic. You can't dissuade a religious fanatic who believes without question. Blind faith is just that, it's blind.

    People don't accept things because the benefits are twisted to underweigh the means. People are idiots, and that's why Spock would be disappointed in us.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby SandChigger » 24 Sep 2009 22:24

    Why the hell do you have to mention the supposed disapproval/disappointment of a fictional half-alien? Aren't YOU YOURSELF disappointed in us?

    I know I sure the fuck am. :roll:
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby E. LeGuille » 24 Sep 2009 22:47

    I meant Spock in the sense of logic, not the literal. Sorry.

    No, if you don't use your brain, and instead rely on the faith of things you cannot prove, but choose to believe, then you are an idiot.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby Redstar » 24 Sep 2009 23:32

    E. LeGuille wrote:The major reason for technology becoming a religious debate is an American political tactic. If a group disagrees with a topic because of some moral complex, then they will make it a religious topic, not a scientific topic. You can't dissuade a religious fanatic who believes without question. Blind faith is just that, it's blind..

    There are plenty of people that would take strong opposition to technology through sincere religious or spiritual belief. To say that the only people that care about technology and its implied affect on human beings are American politicians is absurd. Read a book sometime. Read a science-fiction book. Hell, read Dune.

    E. LeGuille wrote:No, if you don't use your brain, and instead rely on the faith of things you cannot prove, but choose to believe, then you are an idiot.

    Sometimes all anyone can do is rely on their faith. It's called being human. It might do you well to know that science has largely been a field of blind faith, only proven after decades or even centuries of work. Likewise, many people blindly follow "scientific fact" only to have it disproven.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby E. LeGuille » 25 Sep 2009 07:39

    Insanity is attempting the same thing, over and over, and expecting different results.
    Religion is, a bind faith in an unprovable fact. They keep trying, over and over, to prove something they can't understand, or prove. Faith is not wrong.

    Redstar wrote:There are plenty of people that would take strong opposition to technology through sincere religious or spiritual belief. To say that the only people that care about technology and its implied affect on human beings are American politicians is absurd. Read a book sometime. Read a science-fiction book. Hell, read Dune.


    Oh no! You've got me!
    Dune... the very series that taught us following Paul Atreides, while his personality changed over the course of a 12 year Jihad, proved only that blind worship of a man they had made into a messiah, lead to nothing but trouble. Right. No, I should READ DUNE to find out how BAD AN IDEA that BLIND FAITH is. Did you read that part, or just forget about it? It was a big part of, I don't know... an entire book?



    RedStar wrote:Sometimes all anyone can do is rely on their faith. It's called being human. It might do you well to know that science has largely been a field of blind faith, only proven after decades or even centuries of work. Likewise, many people blindly follow "scientific fact" only to have it disproven.


    Blind faith goes both ways, I never said it didn't. Too often, there are no checks and balances in the American Scientific Community. Same goes for the American community. But the idea that Stem Cells, a scientific debate, was never turned into a political ploy by the O great and powerful Republican machine, let me point you to something called a newspaper article. When I get back from work today, I will show you how often Stem Cells, and other simple medical breakthroughs, were trampled -- no, raped -- by not only those who believed blindly that Abortion was the same argument as Stem Cells. Even Adult Stem Cells, are prohibited under U.S. law, due to the ambiguity of those who wrote it, because it was about POLITICS and satisfying the masses for votes.

    Later, I promise. I have written about this subject many times.
    While you're waiting -- why don't you go read the Bible? Specifically Judges.
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    Re: Seraphan

    Postby Redstar » 25 Sep 2009 08:43

    E. LeGuille wrote:Insanity is attempting the same thing, over and over, and expecting different results.
    Religion is, a bind faith in an unprovable fact. They keep trying, over and over, to prove something they can't understand, or prove. Faith is not wrong.

    Penicillin was discovered by accident when Fleming's staphylococcus culture was left out and moulded. This accident has never been recreated (as far as I recall). Ben Franklin did that kite thing and survived... You know how many people have died trying to do the same thing?

    E. LeGuille wrote:
    Redstar wrote:There are plenty of people that would take strong opposition to technology through sincere religious or spiritual belief. To say that the only people that care about technology and its implied affect on human beings are American politicians is absurd. Read a book sometime. Read a science-fiction book. Hell, read Dune.

    Oh no! You've got me!
    Dune... the very series that taught us following Paul Atreides, while his personality changed over the course of a 12 year Jihad, proved only that blind worship of a man they had made into a messiah, lead to nothing but trouble. Right. No, I should READ DUNE to find out how BAD AN IDEA that BLIND FAITH is. Did you read that part, or just forget about it? It was a big part of, I don't know... an entire book?

    I was referring to the Butlerian Jihad as an example that it's a common perception that people will protest, sometimes violently, new advances. Ever heard about the Luddite revolt? How about printing presses getting smashed? Or, more recently, the stigma and ignorant protests of video games?

    E. LeGuille wrote:
    Redstar wrote:Sometimes all anyone can do is rely on their faith. It's called being human. It might do you well to know that science has largely been a field of blind faith, only proven after decades or even centuries of work. Likewise, many people blindly follow "scientific fact" only to have it disproven.

    Blind faith goes both ways, I never said it didn't. Too often, there are no checks and balances in the American Scientific Community. Same goes for the American community. But the idea that Stem Cells, a scientific debate, was never turned into a political ploy by the O great and powerful Republican machine, let me point you to something called a newspaper article. When I get back from work today, I will show you how often Stem Cells, and other simple medical breakthroughs, were trampled -- no, raped -- by not only those who believed blindly that Abortion was the same argument as Stem Cells. Even Adult Stem Cells, are prohibited under U.S. law, due to the ambiguity of those who wrote it, because it was about POLITICS and satisfying the masses for votes.

    Later, I promise. I have written about this subject many times.
    While you're waiting -- why don't you go read the Bible? Specifically Judges.

    JUDGES 21:11-12 - "This is what you must do: Kill every man in Jabesh Gilead. Also kill every woman who has had sexual relations with a man." The soldiers found 400 young women in Jabesh Gilead who had never had sexual relations with a man. They brought these women to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan."

    Awesome. Virgins for everyone!
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